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grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







Kitchen
It’s now December, 2006. It’s hard to believe, but we have been working nearly 12 months on the house, and had fully designed our kitchen 21 months before it was ready to install. My wife went back to Lowes and went back over the design again, and we ordered the cabinets. They came in way earlier than we expected, which was awesome. Unfortunately, I was out of the country, 15 time zones away in Guam! We got straight to work when I returned, taking extreme pains with the level, as we wanted these to be absolutely perfect.


Yet another work delay! Oh, will they never end?.


Hanging the first cabinets.


Dammit, I messed up 9 months ago and put the microwave vent and receptacle 6 inches low and had to raise them… Surprisingly, only the first planning screw-up, which I find amazing considering how much we did so far in advance.

About this time, I talked to the city to find out when we might be able to hook up to the sewer, and they said we could hook up any time! So, I called the backhoe back and dug a trench which promptly collapsed 30 minutes after he left, burying the pipe in 24” of soppy mud. We fought for 2 hours before calling him back. He came out the next day and re-dug it, and we got the pipes in. I paid a buddy $50 to help me dig a trench in the back yard from the shallow end of the pipe to intercept the septic pipe.


Connecting the addition to city sewer.


My friend and my kids trenching through my wife’s garden.

Of course, the city came and failed us. They require a clean-out right at the connection- having one 30’ away at my garage isn’t good enough! So, I climbed in again and put on a cleanout. He failed me again- insisted I HAVE to use a wye and a special 45 degree cast-iron cleanout box (that was hard to find and cost $70!) which I put on, and hooked. This passed. So, we had the septic tank pumped. Then, I ground the teeth off 2 sawzall blades and a hacksaw before breaking 3 metal cutting blades and my circular saw trying to cut the 50-year old cast iron septic pipe. Had to go out and buy an angle grinder to finish it, but got hooked up, and we could flush toilets!!! Of course, the next day it rained and the big trench collapsed and flooded and the pipe floated up and broke. It’s 3 days before Christmas, and I ended up having to go out waist-deep in sewer water and mud with my arms up to my elbows trying to reconnect the pipes underwater- managed to do it and get it covered. And in a case of deja-vu, had my backhoe driver out on Christmas eve filling in the front ditch so the pipe couldn’t float up again.

We managed to get all the cabinets in the week before Christmas, and ordered the counter. Last year, they’d told us 6-10 weeks, but this time they said it would only take 7-10 days! And we got even luckier- they had a cancellation and they brought our new counter in just 2 days after we ordered it, and in time for Christmas! So, we didn’t quite cook Christmas dinner in the new kitchen, but we were able to prepare a lot of it. And we did cook our first meal in our new kitchen 2 days later- pizza on the pizzaz pizza oven!


Cabinets and counter fully installed before Christmas!

Which brings us up-to-date. I took these next photos just 5 minutes ago. We’ve got the dishwasher in, the faucet in the new sink the garbage disposal moved (gaping hole in the old sink now) and this half of the kitchen is fully operational! We’re in the middle of installing laminate wood flooring- as soon as we’ve got enough, we’ll install the oven and bring the refrigerator over, and we’ll be completely moved! I might move the microwave yet tonight.


Old disposal moved to new sink, and everything plumbed up!


Dishwasher faucet, and flooring. And check out the coolass puck lights over and under the upper cabinets! All this kitchen is missing is the crown molding and kick-trim…

Edit: Next update is on Page 4.

grover fucked around with this message at Jul 8, 2007 around 09:57

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







Zuph posted:

Grover, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You are an inspiration. After I get out of college, I hope I'll be able to buy some land and build a decent house one it.

So you really just learned everything from code books? I've never cracked open a code book, but it seems like there should be more to determining stuff like how to pour the foundation, or how to frame the thing so it doesn't fall down. I'm going to school for EE, though, so I guess the wiring stuff seems intuitive for me while someone else might just "get" framing.
Well, the code book doesn't tell you everything, it just tells you the minimums. But it gives you invaluable tables and minimums, and can be used as a design guide (although it's not supposed to be.) For anyone who's doing anything large, I strongly recommend buying or borrowing a copy of the code book. It's $70 well spent! Well, for something that I really feel should be free on the web...

stormrider
Sep 18, 2003

Absolut Awful

This looks great grover. I just did the same thing over my summer, albeit on a smaller scale. It's so rewarding when you get it all done, and you can look at it all and say "I did that."

grover
Jan 22, 2002

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Propaniac posted:

I'm no architect, but does this mean you can just build the room as planned, with a closet-sized niche in the wall, and then when you get the sewer hook-up you can just stick in a curtain rod and put a door on it to make it a closet?

Interesting thread, and it's VERY impressive that you and your wife are doing this yourself. I admit what I'm really looking forward to now is seeing the finished rooms after they're decorated (or at least after they have flooring and wall treatments in there). Please post a full tour after it's done
The copy of the plans stamped by the health department: no closets
The copy of the plans stamped by the building inspector: closets

hmmm... Either way, closets are easy enough to retrofit to a room.

grover fucked around with this message at Dec 30, 2006 around 21:53

kristchan
Oct 8, 2005
Jerk detected! This user is on your ignore list, click to view post anyway
Amish Hooker
Feb 19, 2004

Are Thee Up For Some Plowing?

Well done. I don't think I would be able to plan a project of that size. I am having a hard enough time just finishing my basement.

some banned jerk
Sep 30, 2004


You do all this, and still have time to argue in D&D?

Well done Grover!

StormDrain
May 21, 2003

Thirteen Letter


That's really great, the regular part of the house looks like the addition!

The one and only thing I wanted to say was on your manufactured joists, where you drilled and ran plumbing, always drill right in the vertical center of the beam, there's no strength there anyway. As you remove material closer to the top or bottom it can fail much easier than in the center, just from the distribution of the bending moment. Compression at the top, and tension at the bottom, but in the center there is nothing, a neutral axis.

MrGunner
Apr 9, 2004

dream the dream of your attrition

A few things that would probably have made things easier include:

Building the raked wall(s) with the rest of your first floor walls.

Sheathing your walls before you stood them.

Lifting all these heavy walls with wall jacks which make it so 1 person can lift a 2000 lb wall if they take their time.

Building a ramp down the middle of the second storey at wall height and getting all your trusses craned up in one lift onto the roof. The outside walls hold the tails of the trusses up and the ramp supports the peaks while allowing you an easy place to walk on to stand the trusses. This allows 1 person to easily run the peak off of it while another person nails the trusses down at the wall, because doing all of this off ladders is time consuming and a pain in the ass.

Renting proper tools for the jobs. I realise that you aren't working for anybody so that saving as much time as possible isn't nearly as large a priority, but air tools save so much time that buying/renting them pays for itself. Having a stapler/nailer to attach sheathing and to rail your walls together makes life so much easier and the job go so much quicker.

All of these things make life easier for me every day. I'd really like to know if you had thought of any of them and if they would have been feasible for you. I've been in the trade for about 6 years now so I know a fair amount at least on the carpentry side of things and I often think about building my own house someday so seeing things like this is quite informative to me so I hope I'm being helpful to you.

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







StormDrain posted:

That's really great, the regular part of the house looks like the addition!

The one and only thing I wanted to say was on your manufactured joists, where you drilled and ran plumbing, always drill right in the vertical center of the beam, there's no strength there anyway. As you remove material closer to the top or bottom it can fail much easier than in the center, just from the distribution of the bending moment. Compression at the top, and tension at the bottom, but in the center there is nothing, a neutral axis.
I know, I'm an engineer too! Actually, I calculated it out and it only makes a (IIRC) 2% difference in strength (with respect to moment) if you remove the ENTIRE webbing from a 14" I-joist; 98% of the stress is concentrated in the flanges. So, it really doesn't matter where on the web you cut, so long as you don't notch the 2x4s on the top and bottom. The I-joists come from the factory perforated along the entire length with 1.5" knock-outs every few feet for electrical- and I didn't use any of them.

For drilling holes in dimensional lumber, you're absolutely right- it makes a BIG difference where you drill a hole in a 2x6 or 2x8. And I really really hate to see people notching them!

We really tried hard to make the addition match the house. Our siding guys did a great job finding a very close match for siding, which is apparently intentionally changed every few years to force people into replacing ALL their siding instead of just patching...

One problem we ran into was FEMA's flood zone regulations changed after Katrina- they now require all structures to be not above flood stage, but 1' above flood stage! Unfortunately, my existing house is 3" above 8'5 above sea level (50 year flood level for here) but it needs to be 12" above that. SO, instead of the hall flowing straight into the new addition, there are steps and a 9" rise, which sucks, but what can you do...

grover fucked around with this message at Dec 30, 2006 around 22:27

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







MrGunner posted:

Great suggestions
Thanks! We built all the 1-story walls with the first story; we left the balloon frame portion until we had the 2nd story framed up so we could secure them at the top. It would have been easier to use a crane to do it in a single lift, but we didn't have one availible

That truss ramp is a great idea! I wish we'd have thought of it- the 2x sticks weren't hard to use, though. As for the crane, grrrr- I ASSUMED they'd be delivered to the 2nd floor, not brought on a flatbed. Made an ass out of u and me, though.

As for tools, that's one place I didn't skimp.

We already had:
Radial arm saw
Scroll saw
Circular saw
18V cordless drill
Lots of hole saws
Slew of electrical tools
Framing square
drywall square
Clamps galore
Jigzaw
6', 8' & 10' stepladders
level
laser levels

I borrowed:
Compressor
Framing nailgun
Roofing nailgun
Trailer
PEX crimpers, 1/2" and 3/4"

We bought:
Good hammers
Good gloves (went through several pairs!)
Milwaukee Sawzall
Compound-miter saw with laser
New corded heavy-duty rotary/hammer drill
100' tape measure
5/8" bit (good one too, for boring electrical holes)
flooring tap-blocks
24' extension ladder
500W light
1000W light (actually 2 500W lights)
angle grinder
circular saw with laser

MrGunner
Apr 9, 2004

dream the dream of your attrition

Actually that reminded me of another thing that I had noticed. When we balloon frame interior walls we usually build normal height walls then frame them up to the ceiling later as it's less hassle and easier to do. This way also gives you more support for the trusses before they are stood.

Reformed Pissboy
Nov 6, 2003



I didn't understand 90% of the technical terms you used, but I'm still in awe. I can't build a doghouse that will stand for more than a day.

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







MrGunner posted:

Actually that reminded me of another thing that I had noticed. When we balloon frame interior walls we usually build normal height walls then frame them up to the ceiling later as it's less hassle and easier to do. This way also gives you more support for the trusses before they are stood.
nooo! I can tell you as an engineer, you're building a failure point in at the junction, which is one of the things the city engineer caught me on when I presented my draft plans. (Actually, he yelled at me for wanting to build flat-top walls on the gable ends of the 2nd story and sit standard trusses on them- he insisted my end walls match the scissor truss to tie in the diaphram with no interruptions.) When that wall acts as a diaphram, it will fail where the plates are joined- 20lbs per square foot wind or seismic load puts a LOT of stress on a 17' long 2x stud as it is. Not to mention each stud transmits about 300' of shear from each and every stud onto the sole plate, which I don't think any of the builders here take into account when they skimp on anchor bolts and sub 10D nails or 16D sinkers for the required 16D common. My masons looked at me like I was nuts, wanting to put anchor bolts every 32"!

Also, isn't the definition of balloon framing that you *don't* break the wall in the middile?

grover fucked around with this message at Dec 30, 2006 around 23:04

grumpy
Aug 30, 2004



Hey grover I've got these plans here in my head for about a 1500sq ft addition...ya, lemme know when you want to vacation in Oklahoma.

Awesome work so far, so inspiring. Definitely looking forward to the final tour of the house.

Kneecaps
Mar 22, 2003

We're not playing paddy cake here!

Soiled Meat

Beyond awesome. It's gonna be so cool when it's done and you can say "I built this goddamn thing. I rock."

MrGunner
Apr 9, 2004

dream the dream of your attrition

grover posted:

When that wall acts as a diaphram, it will fail where the plates are joined- 20lbs per square foot wind or seismic load puts a LOT of stress on a 17' long 2x stud as it is.

This might be a code variance as I live in Canada in an area where we don't have to worry about hurricanes or tornadoes but since the only load points of vaulted scissor trusses is on the exterior walls the only purpose of interior walls is to seperate space and hold plumbing and electrical. Therefore we pretty much build interior walls however we want as long as it doesn't make the drywallers job difficult because they are prone to whining excessively.

Wisdom
Nov 28, 2005


The best part about this is that you've demonstrated that anyone if they're willing to learn and work hard can do the same thing. You don't have to hire contractors who will screw you if you're dilligent enough to spend the time and energy to understand code and construction, and in many cases, it might get the job done a lot sooner than if you had hired professionals. I think this is awesome. I've been doing this kind of stuff for years in various degrees and your story is inspiring!

By the way, I am blown away by how much work your wife contributed. I hope she gets as much credit as you for making this dream a reality. She definitely deserves it!

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







Oh, here's another photo of the sewer hookup. We built up a new levee and drained the ditch so we could backfill- all that mud you see collapsed in the 24 hours after I reconnected the pipe underwater. That's solid boot-stealing mud about 48" deep right there!



Here's the trench through my wife's garden, complete with installed sewer pipe:


Man, I can't even type right anymore. I was going to try to get some more flooring in, but think I aught to stop working tonight, too.

grover fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2006 around 20:44

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







MrGunner posted:

This might be a code variance as I live in Canada in an area where we don't have to worry about hurricanes or tornadoes but since the only load points of vaulted scissor trusses is on the exterior walls the only purpose of interior walls is to seperate space and hold plumbing and electrical. Therefore we pretty much build interior walls however we want as long as it doesn't make the drywallers job difficult because they are prone to whining excessively.
Canada has different codes, but similar. In the US, all regions have windloading requirements, but different areas to different degrees- if it's not hurricanes, it's tornados, thunderstorms or earthquakes- all structures in the US need to be built to 90mph winds. But, for instance, florida has WAY more stringent requirements than I do here. And the windows I bought would be illegal in the outer banks of North Carolina, as they can only take 30psf wind pressure.

For me, 110mph winds (correlating to a category 3 hurricane) create a maximum force of -20psf within 4' of the corners of the building. Elsewhere it's a max +15psf.

Once you drop below 80/90mph or so, the structural requirements drop dramatically and you don't need to do much special to meet wind loading- hurricane straps on the roof is pretty much sufficient, but the same rules for good construction still apply. Surprisingly, the techniques for building seismic-resistant structures are practically identical to hurricane resistant structures.

grover fucked around with this message at Dec 30, 2006 around 23:17

Sideshow Bob
Jun 19, 2004
criminally insane

You need to get one of these bad boys before you tackle any more big framing projects.


edit: it looks like you and your wife have done an outstanding job.

Sideshow Bob fucked around with this message at Dec 30, 2006 around 23:22

Prod
Apr 22, 2006
My life for Aiur

Man someday your future family is going to have a house that they can say their dad built by hand, and that is pretty awesome. It just isn't something people do anymore.

MrGunner
Apr 9, 2004

dream the dream of your attrition

Sideshow Bob posted:

You need to get one of these bad boys before you tackle any more big framing projects.

Impulse nailers are handy and all but they are no where near as nice to have as an air nailer and a fair bit more expensive. I love my impulse though because there is nothing better for running the peak of the roof.

shoulder2thewheel
Dec 16, 2006


i always love these types of posts its always neat to see the kinds of experiments fellow goons are up to.

bairfanx
Jan 20, 2006

I look like this IRL,
but, you know,
more Greg Land-y.


Maybe I missed reading over it, did you contract out the siding just because you and your wife didn't want to do it? Although it was only a single story house, my grandfather and I easily sided his house by ourselves.

Endor
Aug 15, 2001



You are truly a real American hero. I helped install some drywall and test electrical connections in an addition my dad installed when I was 12 or so, but this is ridiculous.

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







bairfanx posted:

Maybe I missed reading over it, did you contract out the siding just because you and your wife didn't want to do it? Although it was only a single story house, my grandfather and I easily sided his house by ourselves.
Normally when you do siding, you slip on a sheet, nail the top, move down, nail again, and so on down the 12' or so length of the section. Then overlap the next section and continue to the end of the house.

This is difficult to do 20' in the air with a single extension ladder on uneven ground.

If it was 1-story, yeah, I'd have done the siding myself!

Zilduar
Feb 10, 2005

Let's jam.

This is pretty awesome. I usually go out and do workcamps over the summer, but I haven't made any plans to do so yet. This thread has reminded me to look into it. The first year I went, I was thrown into one of the biggest projects anybody in the group had ever done - double wide trailer home needs a new room addition, completely re-sided, and re-roofing a tin roof. In a week. That was pretty fun. The following year consisted of painting and caulking, but the year after that we made a kicking rad wheelchair ramp for a VFW post. The ramp stands out as one of the most satisfying things I've ever done, because the guys there were so happy to have it.

Your addition looks downright amazing so far, and it looks like you've had a decent amount of fun doing it, despite all the hard work involved.

remember redtuesday
Dec 12, 2006
100+ bans today

Zilduar posted:

This is pretty awesome. I usually go out and do workcamps over the summer, but I haven't made any plans to do so yet. This thread has reminded me to look into it. The first year I went, I was thrown into one of the biggest projects anybody in the group had ever done - double wide trailer home needs a new room addition, completely re-sided, and re-roofing a tin roof. In a week.

I've done something similar the last few years with a group that builds churches. I feel the OP's pain on the roofing, decking and whatnot (that's all they let unskilled guys like me touch) We've done projects of similar scope to grover's, only with about 60 guys in ten days. I'm amazed at what you've done in a year, considering most DIY houses and extensions people I know have done have taken 2-5 years.

I love the new kitchen to!

Delpino
May 12, 2001
Forum Veteran

Looks great Grover. As Hemogoblin said, amazing what you can do while still being active over in D&D. Congrats on the place.

awesomepanda
Dec 25, 2005

The good life, as i concieve it, is a happy life.

Hey, this is pretty amazing, thank you very much for posting this.

what the christ
Mar 19, 2003

two little rikers

As This Old House being one of my favorite shows I can honestly say this was one hour past my bed time well spent. I can't wait to see it when it's all finished. For the time being, can we get some more pictures from the outside?

an AOL chatroom
Oct 3, 2002

The important thing is that you tried


Completely awe-inspiring. Everything about it.

Maybe you can offer some advice here. Last year I bought an older (built in the 1940s) Cape Cod style house in New York's Hudson Valley. It's a fantastic location and we've got a big back yard. Thing is, the house is a small 2 bedroom 1 bathroom jobber, and we're going to grow out of it sooner or later. I would love to put an addition out the back with a nice sized living room on the bottom floor and a bedroom/bathroom on top. What should I be aware of? Is there any place I can get a ballpark estimate about what I'd be looking at, and who are the kinds of people I would want to talk to? I have no intentions of doing this any time within the next say... 3 years, but it's something on the horizon. Any advice would be great.

SirPablo
May 1, 2004



Pillbug

Impressive!

Amorphus
Jun 25, 2005
Available in new pseudo-intellectual flavor!

I've done a little bit of construction work. Good job, grover, I can begin to appreciate all the work that you've done - this on top of a regular job as well! I'm impressed with all the work your wife did as well, as another person had mentioned - her staying up till 2am to get the hot water working was really touching, she sounds like a wonderful woman. Love her well

That aside, you've done an amazing job. Wish you the best!

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







what the christ posted:

As This Old House being one of my favorite shows I can honestly say this was one hour past my bed time well spent. I can't wait to see it when it's all finished. For the time being, can we get some more pictures from the outside?
It's incredible- in the past 6 months, despite taking numerous photos, somehow I can't find a single exterior shot that shows the house with the exterior lights up? Well, no time like the present! Here's the exterior as of this morning:



grover fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2006 around 20:45

grover
Jan 22, 2002

PEW PEW PEW







bisticles posted:

Completely awe-inspiring. Everything about it.

Maybe you can offer some advice here. Last year I bought an older (built in the 1940s) Cape Cod style house in New York's Hudson Valley. It's a fantastic location and we've got a big back yard. Thing is, the house is a small 2 bedroom 1 bathroom jobber, and we're going to grow out of it sooner or later. I would love to put an addition out the back with a nice sized living room on the bottom floor and a bedroom/bathroom on top. What should I be aware of? Is there any place I can get a ballpark estimate about what I'd be looking at, and who are the kinds of people I would want to talk to? I have no intentions of doing this any time within the next say... 3 years, but it's something on the horizon. Any advice would be great.
Planning, planning, planning! Especially if you're not well experienced. First off, look at your existing house and the way it's constructed. Does it have a basement? Concrete slab? Crawlspace? Consider the foundation first, and how you have to construct it. Then, how to tie it into your existing house- how will the roof tie in? what about the walls- you'll need to remove studs to make a new door, were the old studs weight bearing? How much weight? If a lot of weight, you might have a difficult time making a wide doorway. Where is the plumbing now? Where does it need to go? Water supply piping is easy, but the drain (and vent) have to go somewhere, and shit only flows downhill... Also, where is the electrical panel? Is it accessible for new runs, or will you have to tear out drywall to run new cables? Are there even spares? You can probably get away with just 2 circuits for the new living room- 1 for the bathroom (required to be on its own 20A GFCI circuit) and 1 for the living room.

What's the impact going to be from the addition- are rooms going to be unusable during construction? How long are you going to be without a roof? Etc.

If you're going to DIY, the best way to figure out cost is to add up each and every little bit, which is tough to do. Another way is to figure $30-100 per square foot. Chose high to be conservative! My addition cost $40/sqft ($31/sqft if you don't count the kitchen). Most new homes run better than $100sqft these days, though, so if you're contracting out, figure high. You're not going to get the best contract prices doing a single room- for instance, I had 150 4x12' plasterboards hung for $10/bd, but I got the economy of scale- nobody's going to come out for $50 to do 5 boards. Don't forget to consider delivery fees, too! Each truck from Home Depot will run you about $60, regardless of how much or how little is on it...

grover fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2006 around 09:24

BD
Nov 13, 2003



And to think I was so proud of myself for tiling my kitchen counters and replacing the sink, cooktop and hood with no prior experience.

You've done what looks like a terrific job and I am quite impressed. Thanks for sharing the story and photos!

Jack Lusk
Nov 10, 2005



Do you have plans to fix up your backyard next? I think putting in a patio or garden where all that mud is now would really be the finishing touch on your project. And what was it like getting that insured?

Icequeen
May 27, 2004
Jerk detected! This user is on your ignore list, click to view post anyway
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